The Hangout with David Sciarretta
Conversations with interesting people.
The Hangout with David Sciarretta
#107 Finding Your Path: From Sports Writer to Educational Leader
What happens when tragedy transforms a life's purpose? For Patrick Larkin, losing his father to suicide in seventh grade made school his sanctuary—a place where caring teachers filled voids and structure provided stability. Decades later, this experience continues to shape his approach as a veteran school administrator.
Content warning: this episode contains mature content including discussions of suicide.
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Welcome to the Hangout Podcast. I'm your host, David Sheretta. Come on in and hang out. In this episode, I was privileged to have a conversation with Patrick Larkin. Patrick Larkin is a veteran school administrator. Before being a school leader in various capacities, which he's done for nearly 30 years, he was also a teacher. Before that, he was a coach and a substitute teacher, and before that, a sports writer. So Patrick and I cover a lot of ground in this conversation. He talked about his use of technology, blogging, podcasting, et cetera, in expressing his views, in leading within a community. Patrick's approach is humble, thoughtful, nuanced, and refreshing. I hope you enjoy this conversation as much as I did. Welcome, Patrick. Thank you for joining us this afternoon for a conversation. Thanks for having me. I thought we could start where we start with all of these conversations, which is with your origin story, where you come from and how that informs who you are today, the work you do, the beliefs you hold.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, no, I think that's important. Um so uh I grew up in central Massachusetts in um a town called Menden, uh small town suburb of uh Boston. And uh my mother was a school teacher, so education became you know something that was really in my world from from an early days. And then um remember going to school with her, you know, as a as a little kid and hanging out in her classroom. And um, it was always a fun place to be. School was always a good place for me. And then uh when I was in seventh grade, I lost my dad to suicide, and um school became even more important for me because it filled some voids for me, like time, constructive time, wasn't rushing home all the time, and there were a lot of you know, male teachers that kind of filled some voids for me, and you know, and I was just very fortunate to be in a place where a small school where everybody knew who I was, and I'm sure I didn't realize it at the time, but I know people paid extra attention because you know they were worried, and people know you know my mom was a teacher, not in the same place, and so I feel fortunate, and that definitely impacted, I think, me um landing in education. I I went to uh uh a small school in Worcester Mass called Assumption College from there, now Assumption University. And uh, they didn't have a secondary ed program at the time, and so I ended up dabbling in elementary education. Um, but as a 19-year-old going to an elementary school and having um all the little kids surrounding me, I was a little over my head at that point. Like they were very clingy, and I just as a 19-year-old didn't have a lot of experience working with a lot of young kids, had experience coaching older kids. So um I ended up kind of pulling back a little bit. I ended up being a sports writer uh for a little while for a local paper out of college. And then one of those mentors I mentioned from my high school days, my high school baseball coach called me and he's like, hey, uh, we need a baseball coach over here at another local school uh to coach the freshman team. I think you'd be great. So I started coaching the freshman baseball team. And from there, um, I'm like, I love doing this. I need to find a way to be in schools more often. And I started as a substitute teacher, which I loved. And I think if you love being a substitute teacher, it can be a challenging job because you're in a different room every day, never really know what you're getting, and it's not your classroom. I'm like, I knew like if I could go back and get the final few classes I need to become a high school teacher, um, have my own classroom, maybe do some coaching. I'm like, this this is gonna be a pretty good deal for me. And so that's what I did.
SPEAKER_02:So it's interesting, you know. We thank you for thank you for that. And and it's when you underline you underline the fact that this this role of the school as an anchor in kids' lives. Um, I think so often that can get lost in just the daily uh stressors of education, right? Just all the demands on on educators and and the the requirements and the standards and everything else. But it sounds like your life as a has been just a just a real example of that anchoring stabilizing force when when your family goes through tragedy.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, um, definitely. Like the school for a lot of the kids, um I think I was a pretty good student, and um, you know, I don't think a lot of the trauma that may have been in the background there necessarily came out in in classroom settings or anywhere, but I know I hope it makes me more attuned, like you know, when kids are coming to school and things are happening, like there's a behavioral issue, everybody will say behavior is uh, you know, kids are telling you their feelings, there's something going on, and um, just to not to take things personally and to like find out their story, like get to know the kids. And um just kids are going through a lot, and um so I I do I do hope, I like to think that my background story helps me have a little more empathy and and pry a little and try to get to know students, and certainly unfortunately, I've been involved like in the years, like having um families lose kids the same way that my dad, we lost my dad, and having kids lose parents, and like certainly those families you feel an instant bond to um just because it's kind of a a lonely existence. But yeah, I I do like to think it makes me more sensitive, but I'm sure there's times where I fall short of that too, like we all do.
SPEAKER_02:So you had a little bit of a detour, it sounds like in into in uh as a sports writer. Yeah. Yeah, I think. Yeah, how did how talk about that a little bit? Because that's I'm always intrigued by by those things. Yeah, I come from a family of educators, and I tried my damnedest to get out of being an educator for a little bit. So Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:So at Assumption, um, I started out as a social studies major, and there was this one social studies class where there were no tests, but you had to write papers, was like your all your assessments were papers. And then after my freshman year was done, that was one of the classes, I looked at my my grades, and I'm like, I'm doing way better in my English classes. Not that I was doing poorly in my um in my social studies class, but my my English grades were really strong. And I'm like, I just changed my major, and then when I dropped the um the double major, I went to a minor in education. I'm like, well, what can I do here? And I was, I think another thing that like losing my dad, my brother and I were sports nuts, like I kind of lost myself in sports, and um it probably played a a really significant role for me. Like, and um then I got into sports writing, which I liked, it was cool. I got to be in the Celtics locker room, I got to be in the Patriots locker room, I got to be in the Bruins locker room. Um not the Red Sox because the editor of the paper covered the Red Sox and that was his deal. But um, but anyway, when you're doing it for a job day to day, it's like, oh, like it's like one of those things where don't let your hobby be your job or something. Um kind of rang true. I'm like, and I looked around the the newsroom like one night because it was in the days where we have to go into the office and do our work, or maybe you could put put up old-fashioned modem over your phone and send the article in, but it was just easier to be in the office. So I'm looking around like at like 1 a.m., taking the train back from Boston after a Bruins game, and I'm like, when I'm 35, do I want to be here? Or in my head, I'm like, what would be like a step up? I'm like, maybe I could write for the Boston Globe someday. That was like our big local sports paper or phenomenal Peter Gammons and Dan Shaughnessy and Will McDonald, like these crazy good, like well-known nationally um writers. And I'm like, you know what? Like, even at 35, if I could be at the globe, I'm not saying I could have ever gotten there. I'm like, I'm like, I don't think that's the pathway I want to take. So shortly thereafter, the call came in about the coaching opportunity. And as soon as I started coaching, I'm like, got to get more in the school day to day. And so I started subbing at my old high school. And again, it was funny. The high school that I went to, I became a sub, got a permanent teaching job. Then a few years down the road, I became an assistant principal in the school I went to, which was kind of uh interesting because I was, you know, the evaluator for some of the teachers I had when I was a high school student. So it was uh it was a really uh interesting experience, but all it was all good.
SPEAKER_02:So what is your role right now? Because I know you've had classroom, admin, etc.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, I did the math this week and um it's year 29 in school administration for me. Um so I started as an assistant principal at Nipmuck Regional High School. That's the school I attended as a student. I was there for seven years. Um, and then I remember somebody coming into the office and like, what are you still doing here? It's like, meaning I should be going for a principal's job somewhere. I'm like, yeah, maybe it's time. So I ended up becoming a um a principal at a much larger school, Peabody High School and Peabody Mass. Um, it was a great experience for me. Um, I was there for three years. Um, there was a lot of turmoil politically. I think I had um four superintendents in my three years as a principal. And um I'm like, you know, as my contract was coming to an end, I did get the offer to like extend it. But I was looking around and I had an opportunity to go down the road to this place called Burlington Mass. Um, and I uh was really fortunate to land there. I was principal there for five years, and then I did um I think it was 11 years in in central office. Um, and then, you know, things happen. It's time to move on. So after 16 years there, I had some time to think about, you know, I probably have five years left in that vicinity to as, you know, because of the way the retirement system works here. I'm not looking forward to um not working in public schools in Massachusetts. I've loved every minute of it. But um I had a chance to think about like what was my favorite position in um it was when I was an assistant principal, just because you're so connected to the kids and like you said, getting to know their stories and um trying to help students that are struggling and be in a support. And I I really love that role. And so I had the chance to go to Lexington High uh and I'm in my third year, and I love the model. We have uh 2,400 kids, and we have five deans of students, and I'm one of five deans, and we each run our own student support team. So we have our own counselors we work with, social worker, nurse. Um, and I really love the model, how we're able to like get together as a group of educators and see what kids need our support and try to put supports in place. And um, again, I I've been blessed honestly. Like, I feel like every step along the way has been the right step. Um, so I really have no complaints. I really feel blessed about um, you know, where education is has has brought me from point A to point B to the next spot.
SPEAKER_02:In in in such a hierarchical profession, right, like ours, even if we pretend like it's not, we know it is. There's lines that you cross, and then you're on the other side, or some people say you're on the dark side, depending, right? Yeah. Um how do you manage that that uh transition that some people would call a step down? Uh, you obviously didn't see it that way because in your sounds like your whole journey's been a step up in your experience with kids, but you moved from a central office to, you know, eventually now you're in a you're in a uh a dean role and and and loving it. How did you kind of manage that and maybe talk a little bit about how those peer interactions, colleague interactions went too?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, um, no, that's a that's a great point. It is it is a lot different. You don't understand until you're there um in those positions that that it's a little different. Um my first assistant assistant principal's job, I do think I was fortunate because it was in this place I grew up in, and um I think my relationships were strong with people, so there was there was never really any big problem. Um obviously it's you know, you come across people that are like, you know, do I need a union rep in this conversation? Or um I honestly think it's all about relationships. Um I think the higher you go up, like you're you know, from assistant principal to principal, you're dealing more with adult issues at that point. You're dealing with maybe a few staff issues, but a lot of parents that have concerns or want certain things for their kids, and then another step up at um assistant superintendent, it's even more of that. It's more of more disconnected from kids, uh dealing with, you know, union representation about things in schools, and again, just like people that aren't happy with what the principal said and are now coming to central office. And then I'd never really aspired to be a superintendent. I I feel like I was fortunate. I worked in a central office where I had a pretty good voice in decisions when it, you know, when the superintendent was, you know, we he let me work closely with him, and so I feel like I had a lot of voice and decisions that were made. And yeah, I mean I don't I don't see it as ego. It's more like you I don't feel you have the same impact on kids um in a in that position. That's my feeling. And may there's certainly district and building leaders that are able to do things in their buildings that maybe they make big policy changes or are able to change practices in their building or district, and it impacts kids in a positive way. Um that wasn't my experience um in that those leadership roles I felt at some point, and maybe this was a me problem. I became just part of the system. Like maybe there's some comfort that comes in, and like I felt like I could sit, you know, not sit back and do nothing, but you could just do business the way business has been done and and go through your career, or I and I and I felt like there were changes to be made and and the changes may not have been happening, so I'm like, where can I have an impact? And I'm like, let's go work with individual kids. And yeah, not every situation will be a success, but I know at the end of the week, end of the semester, end of the year, I'll be able to at least put my hands on, you know, a couple of decisions and say, like, yeah, I think I helped with a positive outcome there. And I think I don't know, the higher I went up, I don't think that I felt the same way about that, you know, and didn't have those same relationships. Like that's in the classroom where you work with a kid one-on-one and you're like, oh, we made a great connection. I helped this student see something in themselves. Um, and I feel like, you know, I pushed this thing forward positively. And at the end of the day or the end of the year, sometimes with administration, like um, like with the higher administration positions, I didn't always feel that way. And again, that certainly is something I need to think about. Maybe I was over my head in these positions, I don't know, but it just it felt it felt the right thing to do to go back and work with kids. And so um, I have one second of it. I was 100% right, like in what I remembered about being in that role.
SPEAKER_02:What what are your biggest challenges? Uh it sounds like what you relish about your role is that you have the opportunity to work really closely with, I'm assuming like 600 kids or so, right? It sounds like approximately, which is a a good, a good, a good number to be able to learn learn about their lives and their stories. What kind of challenges are you facing and are they different from the challenges that you faced at the beginning of your career career? Because you've been fortunate to be able to span you know two and a half decades in the profession.
SPEAKER_03:This first answer, and if we go up a follow-up, maybe I'll be specific about Lexington, but I want to be clear like I'm not necessarily talking about uh where I am right now in this answer. Um but I think again, one of the things I became disenchanted with, and um this answer kind of plays into my privilege and my background and growing up in upper middle class, predominantly white community, that I wasn't aware of um inequities that existed, you know, in because I grew up in a place where there wasn't much difference. Like everybody was in this white suburb, and that I and it was great. This isn't I'm not saying anything bad about that place that I grew up. I I had a great upbringing. But um as I got older and got to go to like more diverse settings, starting with Peavy, Burlington, Lexington, like you start to realize the inequities in the system and not everybody's coming in with the same privileges. And you know, when kids aren't doing as well, like are we are we making sure that there's equitable opportunities, equitable access? So I think that is like still a big challenge to make sure like we're looking at our policies and our practices to make sure that you know, whatever things are getting in the way of kids um being successful, like it's not something that we have in place that we've just become blind to. And I I think again, all of these inequities that I think we come across or I've come across, they're not things that we're consciously set up. Um they're all set up with positive intent, but we can see clearly sometimes when we start to look at data that there's disproportionality um in, you know, whether it's special ed students, um, black and brown students, lower income students aren't doing as well. And if our policy or our practice plays a part in that, I think we need to be willing to take a look at that and look in the mirror. And I think sometimes it's not that we're not willing to do that, it's just that we're overwhelmed with like we don't we don't know how to fix this. We've been doing this for so long that we just tend to ride out these bad practices or policies uh for too long. So I think that's like a big challenge that um we, you know, have a lot of conversations about um in my last three districts.
SPEAKER_02:It's it's interesting this concept of policy, right? Like there's one way to look at policy is well, that's the policy, and so we need to follow it. Yep. And then I remember a professor of mine in a doctoral program, I think I probably made a comment like that in one of our discussions, and he said, You realize that policies are made by people and um groups of people, and they can be changed by people. Um and so sometimes it's that that also the beginner's mindset of when you switch to a different setting to be able to look at things in with fresh eyes. Um I I just interviewed a superintendent in New York who I think he's been 19 years in that district and 17 years as superintendent. And I asked him about like his blind spots, and he goes, Well, you know, one of them is I've just been here a really long time. And so it's like in a way, it's like the toaster at home that the handle's kind of loose on it. You just found a way to work around it because you're too busy to buy a new toaster. And but if someone comes comes in for the first time in your house, they're like, What the what the hell are you doing? Just get a new toaster. Oh, yeah, you're right. And it's like looking at that. Have you had was your experience in other settings? Because you've moved around, right? So were you able to kind of bring that to your current role and like from an equity standpoint go, ah, you know what? Can we look at this? Can we look at that? Do you have any concrete examples of that?
SPEAKER_03:First of all, like I don't feel like one person can make these changes. Right. Um, so the first step is finding some colleagues that are also of a like mind that are like, yeah, we need to change some things. So in PBD, um, one of the things was I think we were a school of about 1600 when I got there, if I remember correctly, it's been a while. And um there was a lot of problems with freshman failure. Um just some systems in place where freshmen weren't doing well out of the gate. And obviously, when freshmen don't do well um out of the gate, like the the data's pretty bad if they're if they're not getting enough credits to pass their freshman year, um their success rate for finishing high school drastically drops. So we were fortunate to get a federal grant called the Smaller Learning Communities Grant, which I don't think is around anymore. But we're able to kind of break down the high school or at least the front for the freshmen into more I hate to say it because it's not the same, but kind of a team approach like you'd see in the middle school, where the kids would have like the same core group of teachers, um and and put this team in place. And again, that was when I kind of we got the grant, I think I saw it for a year, so I can't tell you like how things end up ended up, but that was like putting structures in place to do things a little bit differently. So that was that was an example of uh of one you know, one thing that comes to mind.
SPEAKER_02:It's interesting the concept of of when you work in settings like that. I'd I'd I'm assuming that your biggest challenge is change resistance on the part of adults, right? Like we, I was just reading with in one of our team study meet uh sessions here at work, and we're talking about, we were reading about the how the amygdala is uh is a novelty detector. And so, you know, 50,000 years ago, it was really good about detecting sounds outside your cave, so you didn't go out there, right? And you you got your spear ready, but now it's hey, can I share some can I share some uh professional uh feedback with you? And suddenly your amygdala is going uh danger, danger. Um how do you work through the that inevitability, right? Because we all have it, I have it, you have it, we all have that reaction to change, to disruption, to breaking patterns that that whether that's a pattern that we set or whether we inherited that. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:No, I've heard the same thing too. Like when you ask everybody like who thinks we need to make some changes around here, everybody like puts their hand up and then you're like, well, who wants to make changes themselves, like personally? And like nobody wants to say it's them, you know. Um I mean, I was really fortunate again, like it's to be in a place with people that are willing to take some risks and understand that even if we fail at this change, just doing things the same way is not an option. Staying the same way is like the worst possible possible option. So, like, let's take some risks. We're gonna learn some things along the way, um, either way. So, one of the again, going to Burlington was a blessing. And when I was the principal at Burlington High, we were able to be one of the first one-to-one schools. I think we were the first one-to-one school in Massachusetts with iPads. So, what I decided to do, or we decided to do, was every Wednesday, that first year, every Wednesday of the school year, we had what we called walkthrough Wednesday where any other local school could come. And we did a little presentation in the morning. Like, here's where we are. We haven't figured this all out yet, but like we thought it was really important for us to start to build a network. Like, here's a school, live kids, they all have these iPads, like you can teachers let them walk through their classes. Um, but this is happening here, and it's okay. Like, we're this things aren't crazy. Like, people were overwhelmed with the idea of like you know, and now we're having conversations about banning cell phones in schools, which is another one, but yeah, and I have thoughts on that too. But um, but anyway, like we were good, we went one to one with iPads, and people were like, How did you do that? Like, how did you get everybody on board? And I'm like, who said I got everybody on board? Because it's never gonna happen, you know. So, what we tried to do was provide opportunities for people to learn. Like, yes, this is gonna feel overwhelming at times. But Chris Lehman is a principal in in Philadelphia at Science Leadership Academy, who's one of the most phenomenal principals I've seen. And um he used to talk about like school is supposed to be prepar preparation for the real world. And like we can't have kids like come into school and like no access to like these devices and then go out into the real world and they're supposed to figure it out on their own. So we thought, you know, the the thought at the time was with our watchful eye, like we can help them learn how to use these things constructively and not be distracted, and um, they're gonna be using them for their learning, you know, for the rest of their lives. So let's let's have these conversations and let's make it happen. And again, we were fortunate to um to do that. And I think we did a pretty good job. And it was, again, because we had a great team in place.
SPEAKER_02:So, where do you come down on? I actually have that on my list. I'm like, yeah, ask them about cell phones. So I hear, you know, I ask a lot of educators about that, and California has mandated by June of 2026 that every district and charter uh LEA has a policy on cell phones. Um, they suggest that you ban them, but they don't mandate it. I've heard everything from people using wander bags already to lock them up to people going, we're not banning anything. Where do you stand on that?
SPEAKER_03:I mean, number one is I think it needs to be a community conversation. Like, I mean, one mistake we make is like saying every school's alike, all kids are alike, every community is alike. So I think there need to be thoughtful conversations involved. Um, where we are like in Lexington is the kids, when they walk into the classroom, they put it in a like one of those shoe tree, like a holder, and they're supposed to leave it there for the whole class. Even if they leave to take a restroom break, they're supposed to leave the phone there. Um, so that's a work in progress. Where I stand is like I think things have changed. Like when we went one-to-one with um with iPads in Burlington, gosh, I don't know, maybe 15 years ago. I can't like it. We weren't in the same place. Like we didn't have such access to apps. And not every kid had their own computer at home, never mind at school. So we just thought we were kind of leveling the playing field by doing some of this and giving teachers access to online resources in their classroom. Like everybody had access and they're so again, the things are moving so fast. I think the pandemic had something to do with this, but I feel like kids are more isolated than ever, even though they have access to these tools that can connect them with anybody anywhere. And I I think there's a lot of conversations we need to have um with one another, especially with you know, AI now involved in the mix. But I read an article in The Atlantic, I think it was like August 4th, about like they did surveys on kids, and I think the the group that had surveyed the kids talked, like, you know, why what we want you to put your phones away. Like, can you talk to us about this and like get some answers from the kids? And I think what they found was um kids want independent opportunities to play with one another. Like some of these things that you and I, you probably had growing up, I know I did, was I could go out and play in my neighborhood by myself. Um, I could go to the park and have a pickup wiffle ball game or a pickup baseball game. And everything is so programmed for kids nowadays, everything is so organized, like they don't have a chance to go out and have the same, build the same kind of social skills or have the same social opportunities. So it's weird, right? Like parents won't let the kids grow up and play in the front yard alone, but they'll let them go up into their room on their phone or their iPad and they can connect with anybody in the world. Like it's kind of a it's a strange situation when you think about it. So I know I know there's communities that mentioned in that article where they're trying to um develop that up these places and communities where parents can drop kids off, like drop them off at the Playground and pick them up in a couple hours. So yeah, um I think our kids need help from us. We spend so much time together in these spaces, and there's opportunities in school. We do like, what is it, 990 hours in in Massachusetts with kids, and I think they're there, but they're not there because of the phones. Like they're so tied to these things. And um so I I do think from some of the things I've heard, it's just a few, and like schools where they tried this. I I've heard interviews with kids on the local NPR station saying, like, it was actually good. Like I talked to this kid I never would have talked to before, and like they're building relationships. And when I think about like, why are our communities breaking down? And like, you know, we're we're either this or that, you know, based on our and it's I think it's because we're not having these conversations. And like I think one of the most valuable things we could do for our kids is like is bring this back. Like, let's, you know, yeah, you don't think you have anything in common with that. So like let's have a conversation, you know. Um, the way things are going right now, it's it's a little scary in the world, like what what direction we're gonna go. So I think the ability to just to have conversations with each other is is more important than ever. And I know I think the phones take us away from that. Even adults, like myself included.
SPEAKER_02:Like, I know I've had my moments, you know, where this was certainly not recently, but like where I was worried about my responses on Twitter, you know, and yeah, that that's the interesting thing, too, is that I know that overwhelmingly, as a group, at least nationally, teachers are strong advocates, teacher unions are strong advocates for restricting and and or banning cell phones. Um, I think it's the enforcement piece is tricky, right? Because it's the does it turn every teacher into an enforcement agent? Does that become an oppositional relationship all over the place? That's kind of an open question. How do we as adults behave with our own technology? Right? Are we are we only using it for work? Like, or are we, you know, like I don't know, how much Amazon shopping is going on in any district in any uh on in any one of the United States, right? Like so it's a tricky conversation.
SPEAKER_03:It is, yeah. I don't think there's any perfect answer, but um I like I said, I think communities need to have these conversations because certainly some of the research, the stuff we're seeing about how our kids are doing mentally right now is is not good. And um I I think the the phones play a huge part in that.
SPEAKER_02:So we talked about the role that writing had in your in has had in your past. Um and I learned I learned about you through a a profile in a in a district administration education influencers list. Um talk to us about your your writing in terms of you know philosophical and practical stances in education, right? And how those are connected to your teaching.
SPEAKER_03:I think the reason I got into the the writing, um, or I was looking for an outlet for my writing as a as an administrator was to to share. And like again, the idea wasn't to share to say, look at me, like we're doing the we're the best school ever, we're doing the best work, like you need to see this. It was more about like sharing experiences and getting feedback from other people and start starting to build a network. So I I was really fortunate to be in these positions. Like I said, when we went one-to-one, I had a big social media network with educators back at the time where like that was kind of a new thing. I started a blog called the BHS Principals blog um when I was principal at Burlington High and like blogged routinely, you know, probably at least every other day, if not more. And just it was a time where people would make comments, reach out, and um it would there was a huge edu blogger network, and I just was it was just timing, really, honestly, and a willingness to share. And um, like I just I still think it's so important that we learn from one another. It's it's still amazing to me that we have these tools to connect each other and and learn each other, learn from each other and network, but I still feel like we don't share a lot school to school. I don't I don't know if that's conscious or like we're afraid to share, or we don't want to give away secrets or what it is, but um I I forget who said it. There was this quote I heard once that said the smartest person in the room is the room, meaning like the more people we bring together, like the better the ideas are gonna be. Um and so I just was trying to take advantage of tools to like put out my ideas, and and then so many times people came back and I was able to make them better because of things that you know people in that network would share with me. So I guess really big on collaboration, like in schools, like you can't do this work by yourself, you can't be like, don't come into education or try to be an educational leader because you want to be a superstar. Like it's really about serving, you know, and and trying to leave it better than you found it. And to do that, like you can't make suppositions about what's best for a community. Like you need to build connections in that community, and you need to make people need to come up with these solutions together if they're really gonna have an impact.
SPEAKER_01:Now, did I see that you're now you've switched to Substack?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, I I haven't been writing as much recently. Um so um, yeah, I I had a website and then Substack came along, so I just play around with that and hoping to get back to um now that we started school this week, to get back to doing a little bit more of that. Um, I see some of the people that I used to um make comments on their blogs on Substack and hoping to start to rebuild some of those networks. Um yeah, so I am using Substack right now. I think it's a pretty easy resource to use. And um, one of the things I do on the side too is I work for this group called Ideas in Massachusetts, which um we do a lot of uh work with schools and educators around diversity, equity, and inclusion, um, and and run some anti-racism classes. And and so um, it's a really great model where you have a white educator with a teacher of color, and we we co-teach um these sessions, and so that's something I've been involved in. So that prompted me to do like a lot of my writing based on you know issues that I was seeing around inequity and anti-racism in schools, and um so just a place to put down my thoughts and again share it with family and my kids, like just to make sure we're having these conversations about things that are happening right now.
SPEAKER_02:And and I'd imagine that it's gotten more complicated or more there's more attention put on it in the last six or seven months, right? Given given nationally the way that that currents are have been flowing related to you know, DEI is a capital DEI or a small DEI, and and and like that whole thing, has that has that affected your work at all?
SPEAKER_03:I think it's impacting everybody's work to some degree because that work isn't done on behalf of Lexington Public Schools. But right, I think a lot of people are nervous about some of the stuff coming out of the the current administration and being careful how they're wording things and reframing and right rightfully so if grant money is going to be tied to things. But I just think like at the end of the day, like if you and I are having a conversation as two adults that know a little bit about this country, is to understand like this is pushback against progress, where you know, we have equity in our in our schools, and um and and we can cite like where these things have happened before, you know, during during the civil rights movement when we were trying to, you know, desegregate our schools, like what did some of the where some of the southern states did was they shut down their public schools and all the kids went to private schools and funds got redistributed. And so I just I just think um it's important to have these conversations. One of our one of the things, the reasons I think that we're in the position we're in as a country is um we don't don't study our histories, probably don't see that these things aren't these aren't new things that are happening, but it's not typical that in 50 states that that we teach these things explicitly.
SPEAKER_02:So try to go back to that young man on the on the oh man, what do you guys call it in the Boston area? Is that the the public? What's the public transit there? The MBTA or the T. Yeah. Yeah, the T. So you're you're riding home after the after after been in the locker room, and I'm kind of glad you weren't in the Red Sox uh locker room because I'm a I'm a Yankees Padres fan. So we can take it. That's good. I'm okay. Okay. Um but uh so what advice does your current self give that young man who then goes into finds this love for coaching and is like, and then a love for substitute teaching, which said no one ever, right? Like so, like what advice would you give that that guy then that that you think would make their path either easier or more productive or more fruitful? Because you've learned a lot of lessons, and I'm sure not all easy ones.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. I mean, part of me, and this seems like a cop-out, but I have two answers. Um, part of me is like the journey has been the journey, and I've kind of like learned so much at each stop, like even where things don't always end well, but that's reality too. Like, but to be reflective on my own part and why things don't always go well. So I I think I mean part of it is about like don't be defensive, um like take some time to like think before responding. But another part of me might say, like, don't be afraid to make a move earlier. Um I think to know like that being really comfortable isn't always a good thing. So I think you know, again, I have no regrets, but maybe I shouldn't have stayed at the school I grew up in so for so long. But again, I loved every minute of it. Um maybe not stay in Burlington so long. Um but again when I was there, like, you know, it wasn't like I was visible. So yeah, I just I just think the number one thing as I get older and I still tell myself is like just don't react when you feel that the blood boiling. Um don't react. Sit in that discomfort. And this was one of the things we talked about too when we're we're dealing with issues around race. Um, especially like if I know that I I made a mistake in regards to, you know, one of my biases coming out, which one of my implicit biases showing itself and learning a little bit more about myself, was just like sit in the discomfort and and and learn from it. That's that's the one thing I guess uh the advice I would give.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, it's interesting to as a sports fan, you know, to reflect on even on Jackie Robinson, right? He was obviously a star athlete, but but he wasn't the only African-American star athlete, right? And so the powers that be that kind of selected him for that path realized that the attributes that he had of self-control and and just really owning his emotions um were as important as the athletic piece.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:And yeah, you know, he him being in situations that you and I will never know, right?
SPEAKER_03:Like, yeah, yeah. And yeah, like that's the thing. Like, even like I remember somebody saying once, and like, this is me again as a white guy being oblivious, is like you know Jackie Robinson was the first major league baseball player, we all know that. But he wasn't the first one that was good enough. There were there were so you know, I mean um yeah, so it's yeah, just reframing things sometimes, like you know, the way the way you know you forgot about things once. Like the fact that you can learn something every day in school, like to change it back to that is like that's why I love the job. Like you're never gonna go through probably a week. Um, that might be even too long of a time frame, but get to the end of a period in in your job in school and be like, I didn't learn something this week. You know, it's never gonna happen. Like, I keep joking, like, oh, coming back for another year, hoping I can get it right this year. And uh, you know, it's not there's never gonna be a year where you get it all right. And that's I think one of the things that I love about it too.
SPEAKER_02:Well what's next for you? Because I you made a comment about, you know, you have a certain number of, you know, I think you and I are probably on the back nine. Yeah. Uh I think I'm ahead of you. Uh so but uh but um but you know, thinking about what's next. Um, and you talked about how the system in Massachusetts is kind of designed. I'm assuming at a certain level, you kind of flatline on your in your pension contributions and et cetera. We have the same thing in California. I think that's a really short-sighted design that they have actually for the pension because they they live they the system loses a lot of valuable institutional knowledge. Um, you know, a 62-year-old today is not a 62-year-old of 50 years ago, but that's a different conversation. What's next for you?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, it's a good, it's a really good question. Like I said to my wife, and I've said this in school, so like I can hit that ceiling in two more years, like this year and one more. And it's like it's way too soon. I love where I'm at right now. Um, if there's a way to stay longer, and I don't want it to be all about finances either. That seems right really, you know. But yeah, I have kids with college debt, and I'm like, so I don't know, like if I'm not gonna leave if I don't have a plan, but I said I have two years to start to, you know, come up with some ideas. Um I have a good friend of mine, Cale Burke. Um, he's written a couple books, um, most recently, like one called Words on the Wall, um, which is a really great book about schools. And like we all have these mission statements that we put up on the walls and and goals and things, but like I don't think we have enough conversations around like what does that look like in action? Um like how do we show evidence that we're really living up to these missions or or core values? Like, what does that look like if a teacher's doing it, if a student's doing it? Like, we don't we just set these great documents and then like oh, we're done.
SPEAKER_02:Like life, like lifelong learner.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So he he goes around, he works around the globe, like um working with schools on making this explicit, making it something they can assess themselves on and um really doing neat things. So, like I've talked to him about like, is there a place in that world? Because I love those conversations when I I um won this award when I was uh principal, I think it might have been around 2012, from an ASSP called the Digital Principal of the Year Award. And um, so I got to go out and um you know speak a little bit at different conferences and at in different states around the country. I get to go to a conference in England and speak. And um, I like, I mean, I don't I don't need to speak in front of crowds, but I'd like to, it's fine. But that's I'd rather if I could if you could build connections with school communities and and help support people doing good work, like I think that that would be a great option. Um I mean I would do an interim principal job, but again, that's not the really the work I want to do where you get to like I want I'd love to do some more ongoing work, like not just like flyby stuff.
SPEAKER_02:Well, you're you're very humble about your about your achievements and and um you know I think the the the online presence piece and your your honest blogging and writing about about equity issues, uh for me I admire that because as a as a a fellow white guy, um it's a little tricky when you're a white guy blogging about equity issues. Either either you're seen as pandering or you're seen as uh that's easy for you to say because you're either part of the problem or you have no idea what the hell you're talking about, right? Um and so I I I see I still see a lot of writing about schools, but there's not a lot of honest um perspectives that really go into uncomfortable topics. So I've appreciated that and some of the things I've found that you've written.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. I know you started the um the interview today around like me giving a little bit of my um identity, who I am. And I think one of the most important things like that we can do as educators, especially um, you know, white educators working in schools where um we have colleagues of color and students of color, is understand our identity and realize like how that impacts the spaces we show up in. Um, I think it's a huge, it's a hugely important question because I remember um the first time I was asked, like, how did my race influence you know my life? And I was like, what? What do you mean? And then I'm like, oh, snap, like that's a problem. So I just I think it's a great question to start with like how does your identity impact like how you show up in your classroom? Again, if people don't, you don't nobody it's an answer that's always at work. That's what I love about it. It's like it's a work in progress. Like, I'm never gonna have the oh, that's the A plus answer. Like, that's not the point. The point is to like continue to be reflective. Like, you know, for me, not to go off on a tangent. For me, it's like I have so many years of being oblivious to the things that were right in front of me. Like, I'm never gonna get where I'd like to see myself, you know, but I'm gonna, you know, try and when I screw it up, I'm gonna take responsibility and keep moving forward because it's too important not to.
SPEAKER_02:Have your own kids gone to school in similar schools to where the ones you've led?
SPEAKER_03:Um yeah, I mean, my kids went to school in southern New Hampshire at a pretty large, um, predominantly white high school. So um, so yeah, kind of more similar to what I attended. Um, but you know, we have we do have a lot of conversations around the dinner table, and unfortunately, like despite despite, you know, where they're growing up, they uh are starting to peel some blinders off. So that's great.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, it's it's always an interesting thing to reflect back as we get in middle age or beyond and think about the way we were raised, and then the way our own kids are being raised and what their experiences have been like. And um I always tell my daughter, I have a 23-year-old daughter, and I just tell her, like, you know, I don't, I certainly don't have all the answers, but let me tell you about a few mistakes that I made. And the sooner you can learn about this thing and get out ahead of it, then it's gonna save you some suffering, and maybe you can the world will get incrementally better through that process.
SPEAKER_03:A first-year teacher um as a daughter, she's just started her first. So that's yeah, so we have a lot of conversations, unfortunate. And she went through a master's program at BU and she was reading some great stuff. She read um one of Dr. Bettina Love's books, who is um I would highly recommend her work if nobody's seen it. Um Punished for Dreaming is one of her titles. I'm trying to remember the other ones, but um, she's just phenomenal. If you ever want to see a a good clip about like what it looks like to be a um she doesn't call it an ally, she calls it a co-conspirator. If you ever want to see a good clip on like what it means to be a white person who's a co-conspirator and creating a better place for all of us, um just look up um Bettina Love Ally versus Co-Conspirator. It's a it's a great little clip um from uh from the P2B panel she was on. Um probably like less than five minutes, but just awesome policy.
SPEAKER_02:That's great. Thank you for thank you for that. Um I you've been very generous with your time, and I I want to honor that. Is there anything that I haven't covered? I have one more question for you, but is there anything that I haven't covered that's been knocking around that you're like, yeah, I'd like to mention this as this as the new school year kicks off for you?
SPEAKER_03:I you know, I mentioned briefly like my friend Kale's book, and um I like looked at our cup, we have some great core values in Lexington Public Schools, and um two of them that I'm really fond of that I think apply to like some of the work I do with students, and I put them up outside my office yesterday where um we all belong and you are enough. And um I really want to have conversations with students this year um about what does that look like to them when when students uphold that core value of we all belong. Like what does it look like? It's not one thing, it's a lot of it. So just if I could get if I could hear students like tell me what they think it looks like, that would be really powerful, I think. So that's that's one of the things I'm hoping to do this year. And so that's all I would say is like to to people like you know, find find like a goal or a focal point for your year and and try to stay with it. It's not easy because we got you know, we always get caught up in the minutia of the day-to-day, and all those aspirations we have fall back because the busy work. But try to find some time for yourself to like stay on that thing that like fills your bucket.
SPEAKER_02:So the last question is uh hypothetical. So let's say you have the opportunity to design a billboard on the side of the freeway. Yep. Uh uh, or the the highway, I can't remember what it's called in Massachusetts. I don't have to call it a highway, right? Yeah, yeah. Um what does your billboard say about about what you believe in?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, I mean, I I do like not to make it like too simple, but I mean I do love that core value is like we all belong, you know, we all belong. And if people like don't feel that way, like I I want to in I want to try to engage, or if they can't engage, like I don't I don't really want to, I'm not gonna give them any energy, you know, because um I'm I'm just concerned about like the dehumanization that happens when we when we don't feel that way. Like if it's a group, if it's a religious belief, it's a race that you feel like people don't belong, um and you're gonna start to use dehumanizing language, it's a it's a deal breaker for me. So I I would that's what I would say. Like we all belong, like and have you know have some pictures of you know diverse groups of people together, but it's a tough time. It's it's a pretty romantic vision. Uh it's unfortunate that we're we are where we are right now. So um yeah, I I I just keep it simple, I guess. That's all I can do.
SPEAKER_02:Thanks for joining us on the Hangout Podcast. You can send us an email at podcastinfo at proton.me. Many thanks to my daughter Maya for editing this episode. I'd also like to underline that this podcast is entirely separate from my day job. And as such, all opinions expressed herein are mine and mine alone. Thanks for coming on in and hanging out.
